The answer to the above question and for overall "good trading discipline" lies in sound money management practices. Money management is perhaps the most neglected idea in trading, psychology is another aspect often ignored by traders. Some people have written very complicated books on money management and related aspects using all sorts of mathematical ratios. But I am going to present it in a simple way (that's what this blog is all about,"the made easy" stuff right?). It will ensure that you keep your trading volumes in check, thus giving you enough liquidity and peace of mind in tense situations.
Neglected Essential : Simple Money Management Rules For Online Stock Trading
The answer to the above question and for overall "good trading discipline" lies in sound money management practices. Money management is perhaps the most neglected idea in trading, psychology is another aspect often ignored by traders. Some people have written very complicated books on money management and related aspects using all sorts of mathematical ratios. But I am going to present it in a simple way (that's what this blog is all about,"the made easy" stuff right?). It will ensure that you keep your trading volumes in check, thus giving you enough liquidity and peace of mind in tense situations.
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@Shazia
ReplyDeleteContinuing from yesterday...above plan might give a better trading approach than waiting for closing prices ...take yesterday's example...closing was way above yesterdays stop loss 5185...and we go up again today..now in nifty this might not appear too much...but in stocks it results in very bad experience...
Your comments regarding above strategy will be important...you can easily find loopholes...so waiting for your feed back
Cheers
Anuj,
ReplyDeleteKeeping 50% for breakout and 50% for pullback is an idea I have used before. And sometimes I think - especially if you are capital starved and very risk averse - that 100% for the pull back is not such a bad idea either .... wrote about it today in m blog .. regards , .....
Hi SOM
ReplyDeleteyes you are right...keeping 100 percent for pull back is very good idea for sideways market or stock in FMCG or Pharma...but problem is it is difficult to identify when the market is in trend or sideways movement...only when a significant move has happened we know we are in trend or sideways condition...and just then a breakout or range contraction starts...Elliot wave solves this problem ...provided we can label the wave correctly...as each wave has it's distinct characteristics
Regards
Anuj,
ReplyDeletea couple of days ago, I left a comment on SS blog on sideways trading which - I am very humble to say - SS found it worthwhile to mention in his next posting.
Anyway, one point of view I have - not seen stressed much else where - is that a pull back is a pullback is a pullback whether the market is sideways or not. If the underlying trend is still intact, pullbacks give multiple opportunities to enter ...... regards , .....
@SOM
ReplyDeleteyes I saw that sideways trading post on Sudarshan's blog...I missed your comments ...I will check today ...
I will try to explain and put some charts regarding pull back and breakout trades that never look back for pullback...thats why I have kept both the option in this plan...check out some fast moving stocks like in sugar sector they seldom show pullbacks...understanding the nature of stock can help in planning a better strategy...
Cheers
Hi Anuj,
ReplyDeleteI like the way you have presented the management plan. The biggest and only disadvantage to my mind is No 1, the psychological part of it. I say this because I underwent stress whenever I took 2 positions in opposite directions in scrips/index.
Try as much as possible I am not in the camp of automatically hedging, maybe that is why I like a one directional approach to my trade. Though I agree that some sectors or stocks underperform and we can spot them easily enough in an up trending market, but those are usually ( not always though) the news flow ones and technical analysis is not helpful when a stock or sector is heavily influenced by news. (as it might change the trend abruptly.. not to say it is very volatile too)
Apart from this I think your money management is brilliantly thought of and if we dont (people who are horses like me) do a short trade at the same time as we are long, then idle money is not going to hurt us, rather it might turn out to be the messiah if something goes wrong.
I think in stock markets if one is able to have idle money then it is not a curse but a boon in most cases than one.
I too did heavy trading from 06 to 08, but quite fortunately due to the profits I made, and because by Dec 07 end I had shifted my portfolio to low beta and underperforming stocks like FMCG and IT sector which did not fall as much as the real estate and commodity stocks, I did not suffer much in the Jan 08 fall. I made one mistake last year and that was misjudging the election results and was short just before elections and this one trade in one day just changed the tables around. I had no space to escape, the roads were closed, :) but not forever.. I believe "this too shall pass." I keep researching and finding out the reasons for my failure and I realize that to rise, falling is as important, because in failure I went to depths I never thought existed.
These markets teach us economics, psychology, philosophy and the maths of life.!!!
You are doing very well with your methods of trading and also helping others like me. I really could not find loopholes in your strategy and the loophole about the psychological disavantage is only mine. It might be useful to others if they can manage stress..
Thanks
Shazia
Anuj - Nice plan. To curtail my unruly mind, I am putting into use between brokers - Long Broker and Short broker. "Break outs" are identified when and how? Read about it in "Deepak Singhs" blog - but as in your style is there a calculator ?
ReplyDeleteComing to calculators, I downloaded the RSI calculator. Please tell me how to us and whether I can link RSI,FIB and EW formulae in my own stock list sheet.
Long live.(since not yours,which handsome man's photo is the label?)
@Shazia
ReplyDeletePsychological problem related to two trades in opposite direction can easily be solved by writing down you trading levels in the evening...with proper stop losses and expected targets...try this for a month or so and you will see the difference
Yes idle money is an advantage...but it's very difficult for a trader to see idle money in his/her trading account when the market are rising like anything.That leads to over trading and soon the wipe out
Thanks for reviewing the plan
Cheers
@Rajagopal
ReplyDeleteThanks for review of this plan
As per my system breakout are SAR level's breach in my market calls table.If you follow Ilango's levels, I would say it will be his conservative trade's Stop loss level(that's my opinion)I find his conservative trades similar to what I call swing trades..our method is more or less same..based on prices.
Deepak singh's blog?...can you give me the blog address
no...no calculator in my case...that's why I am tracking only 7 securities...other wise I could have posted all stocks.I do it manually ,look at prices
My Excel skills are not good...I dont know how to link them ...so if I use them I do it individually..Somebody with good Excel skill can help...you seem to have good idea of excel...or ask rajendran of market calls..
Rsi I feel can be easily integrated as you have already done or ask Ilango...but EW and Fibonacci calculator ...needs manual input...as you have to specify a range to calculate so I dont think these to will be possible(my opinion)
Photo in label?...do you mean that dog in man's avatar?...it's my photo!!! :))
Cheers
hi
ReplyDeletehmm maybe you are right. I think i would need to be more flexible in my approach and will try to do by being very mechanical and disciplined..
Thanks
Shazia
Anuj,
ReplyDeletethis is, I believe, the URL for Deepak Singh's blog: http://www.stateofthemarket.net/blog/.
I have great difficulty in taking opposite positions in two different indices - though I do see the merit of doing so. Trading is such an individual thing that what is easy for one may be difficult for another. But I love the discussion. ....
Dear Anuj..
ReplyDeleteThanks for your writeup on money management. which is most important for us while carrying any overnight positions..
Thanks,
Ramesh
@Shazia and SOM
ReplyDeleteAlthough I had this idea of money management plan for a while...I never had one before...Couple of days back I got a mail from fellow reader of this blog...he was losing a lot of money on a single trade...along with Shazia's comment yesterday night..gave me enough push to pen down few thoughts and it ended with this plan late last night...I never though of point number 1 and 2 listed in advantages of this plan..that idea struck from nowhere...And now looking at that I feel this incorporates two major ideas which otherwise I never used in my trading..Diversification and hedging (in a different way not in traditional way)
Hedging is generally taking opposite position in same security (this way you take opposite position but in a different security...which is in it's own trend..so you are following trend in both the securities)
Diversification...as you deal in two stock not linked with each other...mostly you will end up in unrelated stocks like technology and sugar...or real estate and pharma/FMCG/telecom
I used to think of hedging as waste of money (as it involves cost)and traders who are not sure of trend and traders with low confidence and no system resolve to hedging(just my opining..please dont mind..)but this way it seems just perfect..you get the best of both the worlds
Thanks SOM for Deepak's blog seems the right one
Cheers
@ramsfm
ReplyDeleteNice to see you here..thanks for your feedback...do suggest some improvements...as you have great experience in trading different financial instruments
Cheers
Thanks Anuj.
ReplyDeleteDeepak Singh is http://www.stateofthemarket.net/blog/?p=12726
I noticed the un-intended coincidence in the conservative and your price levels. Will work more on it.
If you don't mind and share the xls sheet with formula - visible and formatable - it would be a great help. Will tweek it to our requirement. Will send the output to you and once you approve will share it. What I am trying is to include RSI,Wave count etc into individual N-50 stocks.
Please consider. Ofcourse even the Dog is very handsome. (My wife loves dog. That's why she fell in love with me)
1. Hedging is done only when you are not sure of trend, better when in doubt stay out
ReplyDelete2. Always take one position, no body can make money by takeing two positions in opposite direction, only borker winns.
3. If you are trading with trend chances of profit are more than loss.
This is my personal experience normally I am wrong,
MONEY MANAGEMENT FROM A GAMBLER (A TECHINICAL DAY TRADER):-
ReplyDeleteTARGET WEEKLY 50 NIFTY POINTS [AFTER BROKERAGE 2.50 (approx) PT EACH TRADE]
Condition: Enter only when all odds are in your favor.
Stand aside when markets are not giving you good trades.
Trade like a cheetah. The cheetah waits patiently stalking his prey for hours, sometimes days. When the opportunity is right, he suddenly jumps to catch the victim.
FREE Tools: Intraday 5 day yahoo charts of NIFTY with ema, stoch, RSI & MACD.
-----------
FOR SMALL INVESTER START WITH 1 LOT MINI NIFTY APPROX 10K.
STARTING CAPITAL 18 K. TRADE WITH 10K CASH RESERVE 8K.
----------
EARNING 10 points DAILY ON NIFTY ON AVERAGE or WEEKLY 50 POINTS;
MONTHYLY 200 POINTS (POSSIBLE TARGET); 600 POINTS IN 3 MONTH.
AFTER 3 MONTH :- TOTAL CAPITAL 30K
START WITH 1 LOT NIFTY50 FOR 25 K. WHEN NIFTY @5K. RESERVE CAPITAL 5K.
CALCULATION EXACTLY SAME, STARTING CAPITAL DOUBLE IN 2 MONTH,
10K->+12K, 25K=>+30K, 1L->+1.2L 3 MONTH CYCLE.
WITHIN FIRST 4 MONTH 1 LOT MINI NIFTY CHANGED TO 1 LOT NIFTY(25K).
THEN CALCULATION FOR EVERY 3 MONTH,
0.0.25K 1LOT NIFTY
1.0.5 lakh 3 MONTH
2. 1 lakh 6 MONTH
3. 2 lakh 1 YR
4. 4 lakh 1 YR & 3 MONTH
5. 8 lakh 1 YR & 6 MONTH
6. 16 lakh 1 YR & 9 MONTH
7. 32 lakh 2 YR
8. 64 lakh 2 YR & 3 MONTH
9. 128 lakh 2 YR & 6 MONTH
This is a very good idea to earn in market, if u consistently earn this type then u should be a crorepathi in 2 & half years. If u double ur investment for 9 times.
If u invest 30/40k, then u should calculate how many years to remaining u become crorepathi. Can U?
With Best Wishes.
@rajagopal
ReplyDeletethanks for the link to deepak's blog
I have absolutely no problems in sharing the calculator...the reason I upload it in lock way is because not every body is as comfortable with excel as you are..
But since you are more into research and want to modify it I will upload all the calculators ,within the same link...so people not familiar with excel can use calculator....while research oriented ones (like you) can work on file...for modifications
I never thought somebody will find a problem with that...on the contrary I tried to make it simple by only "relevant cells" modifiable.
Cheers
@Dinesh
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with your views on hedging...I never hedged my position... instead I follow the stop loss
But this new way I would like to use with my market calls table...very often you will see one stock in up other in down trend(if not we can find one easily in market)...so the idea is to divide your capital in two half and trade one in up trending stock and other in down trending stock....that will check over leveraging and more importantly keep your mind open to all market possibilities
And money get allocated in stocks in trend (one up ,one down)...like you mentioned in your point 3
Nice to see your comment here...I didn't expected that...kool
Good luck cheers
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteThanks for your views
But in this imperfect world,expecting 100 % success in your trades for 2.5 years is a bit tough...we have probably all tried this 10 point gig...but have got disappointed ...
But you have highlighted new perspectives...although very difficult to be that consistent
Cheers
nice article
ReplyDeleteThanks Piyush..hope you find it useful in trading
ReplyDeleteDear, Anuj,
ReplyDeleteTrading is more of PSYCHOLOGY:-
It's always easier to enter a losing trade.
If I say, just loose 10 points every day or 50 points in a week on average.
CAN U? Yes, U CAN, EVERYONE CAN.
Why? Bcoz, u have no fear to loosing money.
The problem is in our mind.
Let’s look at an example:
Which would you prefer: (a) a sure loss of
$900, or (b) a 95% chance of a $1,000 loss plus a five percent chance of
no loss at all? Select either (a) or (b).
Now let’s try one more. Which would you prefer: (a) a sure gain of
$900, or (b) a 95% chance of a $1,000 gain plus a five percent chance of
no gain at all? Once again, select either (a) or (b).
Most people would take the gamble in the first problem. They would
take the 95% chance of a $1,000 loss plus the 5% chance of no loss at all.
Is that what you picked? Let’s take a look at how that works out. If you
multiply $1,000 times 0.95, you get an expectancy of $950. That means
you’ve elected a worse expectancy, a loss of $950, just for the remote
possibility of getting back to even. Yet what is the first part of the golden
rule of trading? “Cut your losses short.” What did you pick in the second
problem? Most people pick the sure gain of $900. Yet if you look at the
gamble, item (b), it gives you an expectancy of $950 ($1,000 times 0.95).
But that goes against the way most people think. They’d rather take the
sure profit than be risky when they are ahead. Yet what is the rest of the
golden rule of trading? “Let your profits run.”
BUT WE DO THE OPPOSITE, BCOZE OF FEAR & GREED.
Now just think the OPPOSITE.
U CAN.
Just Day Trade like a cheetah & No overnight position. Best Wishes..
Dear Anuj,
ReplyDeleteNow just think the OPPOSITE (U have to loose money) and read the above example again.
Now, which would you prefer?
(a) a sure loss of $900 in first case.
The right choice!
Trading is The Battle Against Human Nature.
So, just do the OPPOSITE & Choose the Path Less Traveled.
Best Wishes.
@anonymous
ReplyDeleteSo the basic thing is that you want to be a day trader...with 10 points as net profit brokerage of 5 rupees (2.5*2 ,both buying and selling)
So that means you aim for 15 nifty points
What's your stop loss?...probably you trade without stop loss...because if stop loss gets triggered whole mathematics of 2.5 years get messed up
and you aim for 100% accuracy for 2.5 year and become crorepati..
That's the system right?..It's good if it works for you...I wish you good luck...
But everybody cant do that...not everybody cant be a cheetah ...and be a day trader..
As you mentioned correctly that it's about Psychology..every body is different...so we need to respect that view..that's why I encourage people to make their own rules and not follow my way...as it works only for me
We have to find our own "comfort zone" in this trading world...you have probably found your...and even I have found mine too...so what if they are different..as long as it brigs peace of mind to us...
Cheers ...Cheers
Double cheers to you...
PS...your method is very similar to Rajagopal's system...ARE YOU RAJAGOPAL?(just speculating ...that's our business...he he )
Keep sharing your thoughts...I like new perspectives in trading :)
Good luck
How come so many guys appreciating such a stupid money management strategy....Please first you should be well informed before advising others...
ReplyDeleteYour blog is nothing but a complete crap.......copy pasting stuff......
Derar Anand Sir
ReplyDeleteThank you for your wonderful feedback...can you suggest some ways how it can be improved? or suggest an altogether new plan..?
Good luck in your trading
Dear Anuj,
ReplyDeleteI like ur blog & I m no Raja or Gopal.
I m only a prof. day trader (10+ yr exp),
Believe me or not, I have completed above 7 steps. U r right, I trade without stop loss...
using stoch,rsi,macd,fibo levels & daily-weekly pivot only.
It don't needs 100% accuracy as Actual TARGET only 600 points set for 3 months (more than 60 trading days.) U can achieve that, target approx 12-15% on nifty future over 60 days.
:- A word from a Mathematician [ :-)].
Best Wishes.
Dear Anuj,
ReplyDeleteBelieve me or not, I hv completed above 7 steps! It don't need 100% accuracy as TARGET is set for 3 months (more than 60 trading days). Above calculation is based on possible Target is Approx 600 points in 60 trading days.
i.e., 12-15% (nifty @4000-5000) in 60 trading days. I have achieved it in day trading & u r right; I trade without stop loss, I trade using
stoch, rsi, macd, daily-weekly pivot and fibo levels only. My Brokerage is 2.25 total, for 10 pt I need only 12.25 not 15.
I like ur blog, Very Good Work, keep posting.
:- I m no Raja or Gopal or RAJAGOPAL [:-)]
I m a day trader with 10+ yr exp & a mathematician.
Best Wishes.
Dear Anuj,
ReplyDeleteBelieve me or not, I hv completed above 7 steps! It don't need 100% accuracy as TARGET is set for 3 months (more than 60 trading days). Above calculation is based on possible Target is Approx 600 points in 60 trading days.
i.e., 12-15% (nifty @4000-5000) in 60 trading days. I have achieved it in day trading & u r right; I trade without stop loss, I trade using
stoch, rsi, macd, daily-weekly pivot and fibo levels only. My Brokerage is 2.25 total, for 10 pt I need only 12.25 not 15.
I like ur blog, Very Good Work, keep posting.
:- I m no Raja or Gopal or RAJAGOPAL [:-)]
I m a day trader with 10+ yr exp & a mathematician.
Best Wishes.
@anonymous
ReplyDeleteGood that you have shared your strategy completely..10 years of experience is quite a bit..Did Tech bubble pulled you in stock markets?...:)
One request ...have a profile name so that we know that this is a person and this is his strategy..other wise the strategy might get lost in infinite number of Anonymous comments in future.You can create a temporary one...most of the profile in internet are temporary...consider giving a name to your strategy...that will define your personality
@all
Now we know the reason behind the confidence which we saw in Anonymous words,he trades without stop-loss...hope new traders dont start with that strategy, because he has tons of experience behind that no stop loss strategy...and a day trader..many people get trapped when they enter the market without stop loss and convert the day trade into swing then to positional...and then to long term "value' investor...
So always trade with stop loss ...till you get the feel of market and know your strategy completely like our friend Anonymous here...you should seek complete information before adapting a new or modifying your own strategy
Cheers
Hi Anuj,
ReplyDeleteIt is really a good post.This system will give high probability trade during volatile and range bound market. During the trending times we could choose high beeta stocks in the direction of the trend and low beeta stocks in the opposite direction. By this way Risk can be mitigated ( of course can't be eliminated)as in any kind of business.
Have you tested this system realtime, what emotional/execution level difficulties you faced? Your inputs will be greatly appriciated.
I have gone through your "holy grail" list, it is awesome.
Thanks,
subbugentleman
Hi Subbugentleman
ReplyDeleteThanks for your feedback and suggestions
I have the problem an inadequate capital listed in "disadvantage" point number 3
It can best be practiced with a written plan
These day I am working with screener...so that I know which stocks are going down and which up
As you mentioned rightly...mostly we end up with high beta (financial and real estate) on one side of trend and on other side of trend its generally low beta (FMCG)
Holy grail post that's a favorite...I check that every weekend..I will add more to this post in future just to make it more simpler!!
Good luck
Hi Subbugentleman
ReplyDeleteForgot to mention..
Another problem that I encounter very often is illiquid stock futures contract...Although the stock might be in trend its very difficult to do short term trading,when the futures contract is of a low traded stock...
Cheers
Thanks for the clarifications. I have started using the money management plan (from yesterday) laid out by you. I will keep you updated of my real time experience ( let me observe it for a months time)....
ReplyDeleteHi Subbugentleman
ReplyDeleteGreat to know that you find it useful and using in your trading.Just two points that we should consider:
1) how to find one stock in up and other stock in down trend ?
2)How to identify a breakout and a pullback (need patience with this one)
Once you find a way to identify the above ...what remains is just putting trade with your broker
Plan should be written (most important) otherwise there is a strong tendency that we will get lost with numbers and market noise.
Thanks again
Good luck
Thanks Anuj, I am working on writing plan. I am also looking for NSE futures support/resistance daily and weekly, SMA and stochastic for entry and exit. Looking at charts in working place is getting difficult :). Is there any place where these details is available in excel sheet. I tried icharts screener, but it is not specific to futures. Any idea ?
ReplyDeleteHi Subbugentleman
ReplyDeleteSorry about a late reply
you can check this site
http://tradeinniftyonly.blogspot.com/
he(Ilango) also gives a written plan...as well as there is an excel file that you can download right of his blog)...to get data of various indicators
Cheers
Thanks Anuj for your reference, Ilango's site had lot of helpful links and excel templates.
ReplyDelete:)...cool
ReplyDeleteHi,Anuj,
ReplyDeleteI will agree all your points...i am a TA and give tips for banknifty,we have our own software and trade based on it...The 'may-2010' we have made 1800 points in banknifty...it is no doubt one can have greater yield in banknifty.Aprreciate all your efforts.
Hi Anuj
ReplyDeleteGooD MM system.
HOW ABOUT CLUBING IT WITH 'POTS' by Dinesh Rishi?
Rgds.
Hi Ravindra
ReplyDeleteYes it can be clubbed with any system("POTS" included).As well as any sort of investment or a loan.Any thing which has a "variable component" like asset value or interest,should involve money management,so this can be used.It is basically initiating a transaction or a trade in a staggered way.Either at two price points or at two time intervals.
Cheers
Thanks Anuj for reply.
ReplyDeleteAt present following ur SAR ! SHORTED NF @ 5253 SL 5310.
Thnx.
Hi ravindra
ReplyDeleteAs we are experiencing sideways market condition...both long and short position can be justified with appropriate stop losses..Do remember that you have entered after market has fallen for some days...and US market are in over sold levels...trade light...try to entry close to Low risk entry level
Cheers
Yes Anuj U R right. I m testing waters with Mini NFT using Strict SL @ 5310. But may cover @ 5280 on day CL. Many thanks 4 alerting me.
ReplyDeleteAlso I hv shorted OTM 4700 PE AND 5600 CE of SEP series pockting 180 pts now it is qtng 158. Last month got 40 pts on AUG position .Please comment on this strategy.
Also this may not be the proper thread to continue commenting . Shall i continue on main home page?Many thanks and best regards.
Ravindra.
Hi Ravindra
ReplyDeleteVery good that you plan to exit around 5280 and not at my level 5310.Just dont blindly follow any level and take responsibility of your profits and losses.It will make you a good and a confident trader.
I dont trader in options so cant comment on this particular strategy.But I always feel that selling options is a better way to go about w.r.t options.As time decay is in favor of you.But it should be done after a "significant" rise in volatility or trend exhaustion.
Yes you can comment on daily trades on main page,so that other blog reader may contribute as well.
@ Anuj
ReplyDeleteall pts. Noted.
Thanks.